Feeds and Speeds for S30C + Pro with Nema 34

Greetings!

I’d be grateful for some help regarding feeds and speeds using my particular machine and spindle as it’s a rabbit hole from hell. I’m looking for anything really, from general advice for plywood, soft/hard, charts, info on a single 1/4" or 1/8" compression down up, anything with my machine in mind. :grin:

I have the Avid Pro with Nema34’s, and an S30C 3HP 24000 rpm spindle.

I have a job where I’ll be using a 6220 2" surfacing bit, 1/4" and 1/8" spiral compression and same size ball nose upcut.

I’ve researched this to death and can’t seem to find what I can confidently use with my machine and spindle.

Thanks for anything you’ve got!

For example:

I have a 425-CM250 1/4″ up down spiral compression bit from B&B. The listed specs are Soft/Hard Woods/ Plywood – Spindle Speed- RPM: 18,000 – Feed Rate – IPM : 90″.

Given that data, how would I figure out what the actual “ideal” numbers are for the machine with a max cut speed of 400 IPM and my listed spindle specs?

I think I might have finally found what I need.

Chip Load = Feed Rate (IPM) / (RPM×Number of Flutes)

If I want to increase the RPM then I need to change the feed rate:

New Feed Rate (IPM)=Chip Load×New RPM×Number of Flutes

So that leaves me with: Can I increase the rpm or is 18000 the max rpm that bit can handle for said material? How do you work this out for yourselves?

I run my S30C with any 1/4" bit at around 21,000 RPM with a feed rate anywhere from 50 IPM for finish passes to 300 IPM for roughing. Wood is pretty forgiving and variable, so don’t focus on an “ideal” recipe. My starting point was “what do I do with my PC960 router?” It’s not like we had to move THAT at a specific speed.

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Usual preface: I’m with PreciseBits, so while I try to only post general information take everything I say with the understanding that I have a bias.

I’m not sure you know how deep this rabbit hole goes…

I’ll first try to address this without tool much techno-babble. That feed and speed works out to a 0.0025" chipload. That is extremely conservative for a 1/4" tool in wood (depending on pass depth). However, the RPM is somewhat aggressive at 1178SFM. Might be fine depending on the tool geometry. If it were me, I’d at least double the chipload (feed) without an increase to the RPM. All of that though has to be balanced against the pass depth to control cutting forces. You don’t have one listed here. So I’m not sure what you need to hit or really have a decent point for advise.

Also, as djdelorie pointed out you have a lot of margin here. Even the 0.0025" chipload is above the “minimum” for rubbing, depending on artwork (direction changes and acceleration).

Techno-babble…

What you have in your last post is chipload formulas. This along with surface speed is what all feed/speed are trying to get to. Probably in almost all cases chipload is the MOST important factor in milling. So yes you could use that formula for an increase in RPM keeping the same chipload.

The answer to your general question though isn’t as simple as that. The short version is that every material and tool geometry will have a “sweet spot” where it will cut well. There are MANY variables and no completely easy rules of thumb. As an example let’s say that that 90IPM at 18KRPM is is good number (although it’s a really low chipload). If you changed one aspect of that tool like it’s rake (flute angle of attack) or helix (flute twist) that number will no longer be correct. Or at the very least it would change where you get the most productive or best finish cut.

As mentioned you have a decent amount of margin in chipload in this size in soft media. However, you need to keep a minimum chipload to prevent rubbing. Basically if you don’t cut a large enough chipload you won’t actually be cutting a chip. Instead you will rub the material out of the way functionally turning your endmill into glorified sandpaper.

The RPM question comes down to surface speed. Surface speed is the speed of the edge of the cutter. So for the same RPM, the bigger the tool the higher the surface speed. There are pros and cons to higher surface speed depending on the material and cutter. The short simplified version is that geometry changes like rake or edge radius along with the material determine where you can run it without damaging the tool or material regardless of chipload (feed). Again, an extremely simplified version would be that the more “aggressive” the tool, the higher your surface speed can get. Most of those though come with weakening the flute or tool. There’s also an increase in sear force with surface speed. In soft materials that can help get a clean cut.

What the combination of those comes to is that you want as high a surface speed as you can get, while still supporting a good chipload, and not exceeding the tool design or material strength.

Ignoring the surface speed for a moment. The rest of this comes down to exceeding the minimum to actually “cut” a chip while keeping cutting forces in check for the tool and machine. More or less this comes down to cubic material removed per flute per rotation. So we have an increase in cutting forces for any increase in chipload, stepover, or pass depth. Those forces have to be resisted by the tool and machine. When they get out of control they start to effect the cut with things like chatter. Bigger chiploads though will usually leave a better cut, cut faster, and increase tool life. At least up until you reach a limit for the material, machine or tool.

There’s also a bunch of other variables like runout which can add and subtract chipload from flutes in multi-flute cutters. Or tool geometry variables, carbide grade, coatings, tool tolerances, etc.

That all works out to if you REALLY want the “BEST” cut for YOUR material, on YOUR machine, with YOUR tool, you are going to be testing. Unless your in a production mode though, that might not be the best use of your time and resources.

I rambled enough. Hopefully some part of that was useful to someone. If there’s something I can expand on or help with let me know.

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And if this is the first time you’re pushing a bit to its limits, I’ll add a note from my experience - clean the shipping grease off your bits before putting them in the collet. The axial force from an up-spiral bit is enough to pull it out of the spindle and ruin your work. No matter how clean they seem, a quick wipe of degreaser (I use acetone) is important.

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I’d recommend downloading the Amanda tool database. If you’re using Amanda bits it’s perfect. If you’re using other bits it’s a good starting point to pick a feed/speed setting from a similar bit. Here’s the link: Amana Tool Vectric Library

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@TwigStudio Seconded. Amana has one for fusion as well - they are missing some bits though.

Have to be a little careful about depth of cut using their library, easy to accidentally do a higher-than-rated horsepower move as their library is made for industrial machines with high hp spindles.

I will occasionally do a sanity check with this tool: Milling Horsepower Calculator although it is difficult to know what Unit power (hp/in³/min) each wood I use actually is. I can’t find a good resource, but chatgpt gave me some ranges to work with:

Wood Species Specific Cutting Energy (hp/in³/min)
Walnut 0.35 – 0.6
Oak (Red) 0.4 – 0.7
Maple (Hard) 0.5 – 0.8
Cherry 0.35 – 0.55
Mahogany 0.3 – 0.5
Ash 0.45 – 0.7
Birch 0.4 – 0.65
Hickory 0.55 – 0.85
Beech 0.5 – 0.75
Teak 0.45 – 0.7
Poplar 0.25 – 0.45
Alder 0.3 – 0.5

And here is a chart from tormach showing the possible outcomes when dialing in your feeds and speeds:

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Thanks for all the pro tips, I appreciate it!

You should have a look at G-Wizard Speeds and Feeds Calculator from https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.cnccookbook.com/g-wizard-calculator-pricing/&ved=2ahUKEwiOjuHy98uIAxUkrlYBHQX_IOcQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1dOkCA4gls5z3ydYctGnI4

I’ve been using this for the past 8 to 10 years and found it very helpful.

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Just a couple quick things.

Using ANY manufacturer sheet is going to be very variable to other tooling. You can use them for starting points or reference but can get into trouble depending on how they are biased (safe, aggressive, marketing). Geometry changes a lot too especially in application specific tooling and surface speed. Won’t go further into this due to previously listed biases.

Milling force depends on tool geometry. e.g. a “sharper tool” (higher rake) will remove the same material with less force. Also how your are removing it (helix, surface speed, etc.) change combined peak forces. Anything “close enough” works for a sanity check though if you have enough margin and are just looking for spindle power.

Best calculator or software I know of that isn’t a mortgage is Millilyzer (Link). It requires a bit more than surface level knowledge to use though.

G-Wizard is currently, and potentially going forward froze. Bob has unfortunately died (Link). While I didn’t agreed with him on everything, I’ll miss his contributions and it’s a loss to the community.

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