I’m thinking about upgrading my AVID to the EX Controller, ClearPath servos, ATC, and I’m trying to decide between the AV40S and AV70S spindle.
I’m just a hobbyist. I don’t need any of this. I buy tools because I enjoy using them, and I tend to buy capability and headroom for the future.
What I’m trying to avoid is the mistake I made years ago when I bought the 4HP Hiteco instead of the 8.7HP. I later discovered the 4HP had a higher minimum RPM, which limited things like drilling. It wasn’t a horsepower issue. It was a capability difference that I didn’t understand at the time. I know that isn’t an issue with the new AV40S and AV70S. I’m just using it as an example of the kind of unknowns I’m trying to uncover.
At the same time, I don’t want to spend an extra $3,000 if it buys me 0.3% more real-world capability. To use a car analogy, I’m looking for useful reserve, not 700 HP in a Miata where the chassis can’t effectively use it.
So my questions are:
1. Other than running large surfacing or slab-flattening cutters, where does the AV70S actually provide meaningful real-world capability? Does an EX/ClearPath AVID have enough rigidity to take advantage of the extra power, or does the machine become the limiting factor first? Are there any “I wish I’d known this before buying” differences between the two?
2. Who actually manufactures the AV40S and AV70S spindles? I’m not looking for proprietary information. I’d just like to know the OEM so I can research their reputation and long-term reliability.
3. I’ve seen several comments that the AV**S spindles run much hotter than the old Hiteco spindles. Is this simply normal operating temperature, or has anyone seen long-term reliability issues because of it?
I’m not looking for someone to justify spending more money. I’m looking for the unknowns that only show up after you have owned and used these machines for a while. Hopefully that makes sense.
Before working at Avid I used to have a small production shop that I ran myself. I had a 4x8 CNC. Most of my production work was baltic birch plywood and HDPE.
I had a 4 HP cheap-o spindle that I would often press the limits of. I went to an S30 which had less HP (3HP). I did it because I wanted ATC to speed things up (and boy did it speed things up) I figured the trade off was that I’d have to lower my feedrates a bit, but that the net benefit would be more speed overall.
I was wrong. I don’t know for sure but I think the S30 had more rotating mass than the super light 4HP spindle I had. When I swapped them the 4HP was WAY lighter than the S30. I was able to push the heck out of that S30. It kept right up with my old 4HP.
The same is true for these AV spindles, they have a decent amount of mass to them.
Could I have used a 7HP spindle back then? Probably… but only for some jobs. Most of my work the 3-4HP was fine, and I was pushing the machine.
That’s sort of a non answer, but I think if you were flattening slabs ALL DAY you’d want the 8.7 AND three phase (it needs three phase to get the full 8.7 out of it, otherwise it’s a little over 6HP)
CAN you flatten slabs with a 4HP? SURE! And in decent time too, but could you do a bunch more per day/week with a 7? Yes.
Sounds like in your situation a 4HP is a good choice.
EX/Servos are a nice upgrade over steppers too. I ran steppers in my shop and they were fine (I had a really hot-rodded machine with some monster steppers). I knew when to push them, and when to be careful. I wish I had servos back then, they would have saved me a few times for sure.
Servos are just better. Closed loop, quiet and smoother. Even on hobby work your machine will run so much smoother with them.
Respect a guy who knows what he wants and why he wants it.
I can speak to the EX over Mach4
the tool height setter is great
I don’t have one but the wireless MPG seems great
I also don’t have one, but a fully supported quick tool change seems like a good balance between manual tool changes and maybe overkill ATC. You still have to invest in tool holders, collets, etc.
I have a sickness…and the only cure is more tools.
The Mach4 vs Centroid seems like a solid upgrade. I was kind of mad when I first heard about it to be honest. When I bought my machine I was told Mach4 was the answer to all the Mach3 problems…Then shortly after I get my machine setup…the new controller comes out. I never really had much problem with Mach, but the new system certainly seems like it’s a serious improvement. I will get the wireless pendant for sure. I have a wired one for Mach4 now. It’s awesome. I don’t think I could go back to the keyboard or game controller.
I can’t justify the ATC, but that won’t stop me. I have been going back and forth on this for months. Ever since I saw the first video about the ATC rack. Until that came out I was going to go down the Masso rabbit hole.
However, I think I need to stop building things to build things and just build things. Which is why I’m back to sticking with the AVID ecosystem. I will admit…I’m a bit worried about going from the Hiteco to an unknown spindle. Hiteco has a reputation that is pretty hard to beat.
Last week I was planning to get the AV70S no question…then I started looking at the price again even after I already said “YOLO. I’m going AV70S!” now I’m leaning toward the AV40S.
Come on people! Upsell me! I’m begging for it! lol
I see no reason as a hobbyist to go for the av70s. The av40s can do everything the 70 can just slower. Since it is just a hobby, there is no need to maximize throughput. For my business, I wouldn’t even consider the 40 because time=money and I could actually use the power. For my hobby stuff at home, I would do the exact opposite. AV40S is great.
One of the things I like about avid is they have different levels of upgrading you could get the whole kit spindle VFD or a spindle and components without the VFD and use your current one or just get the spindle
I have a pro machine from 2019 so it was Mach4/Steppers and the now older 3.3 HP spindle. Last year I upgraded to the EX Controller/Servos and it was a game changer. The machine runs much more smoothly (less sanding!) and it’s just bulletproof - no more random odd Mach4 issues. Since quite a bit of my work uses smaller bits, I have been fine with the older spindle. At some point I’ll upgrade probably, but I never flatten slabs, etc. where I would need the really beefy spindles.
I am a pro woodworker and the CNC supports just about everything I do.
Sometimes rigidity isn’t the limit. Slab flattening, general roughing and 4th axis roughing are all places I can think of being able to use more power. It won’t save a lot of time but the “is it worth it” equation is very different for a business. As a hobbyist, I would rather take the extra money and spend it on tooling, supplies or other shop upgrades.
Its your money, do what you want. It just seems silly to me for a hobbyist to spend $3k extra on a spindle with more power when the cheaper option is more than adequate for the machine. Especially because you can only use that extra power in narrow cases because of rigidity issues. Even ATC is a pretty big luxury for a hobbyist. I totally get why it is nice and I would try very hard to get it myself but it is a luxury.
To me, “need” and “use” are two very different things. I don’t mind spending money on features I don’t need if they’re something I’ll actually use and enjoy. What I don’t want to do is spend money on capability that I’ll never use.
If the primary advantage of the 7HP spindle is slabbing and 4th-axis work, then I’d likely never take advantage of that extra power. That’s not a question of whether the 7HP is better or provides a real benefit. It’s a question of whether it’s a benefit that applies to anything I’d ever do.
Honestly, I don’t need any of this. The whole machine is a luxury for me. I don’t make money with it, and I don’t even use it all that often. But when I do, I have a blast, which makes it worth it. The ATC falls into that category as well. I certainly don’t need it, but it’s something I know I’ll use and enjoy every time I’m in the shop.
For me, it comes down to perceived value. Value isn’t the same for everyone. I’m not trying to justify whether the 7HP is objectively better. I’m trying to determine whether it’s a capability I would ever actually use. There’s a big difference between buying something you don’t need but will enjoy using, and buying something you simply can’t make use of at all.
I appreciate the insight, nonetheless. It’s helping me think through that distinction.
We have been running av70s all day everyday for almost a year on a prototype door machine. It exclusively runs 1/4” and 1/8” single flute up cut bits cutting full depth of .120” through aluminum extrusion. It definitely gets a little hotter than our hsd’s and hitecos but seems to perform on par with them. It melted/deformed a pla dust shroud so it’s likely operating in the neighborhood of 80c. For the price to value it’s a no brainer and for a hobby I’d say it’s overkill….get the 40 and buy legit tools.
As for the ex control and clear path. Wow, I learned on Mach and currently run m80 and wincnc almost daily. I loveeee the ex and don’t understand how Mach is even still alive. I more often than not find myself wanting to theoretically downgrade the controllers on our high end machines to the avid setup.
I designed and built machine and was able to train an older more gun shy fella in a day and an 18 year old in about an hour. They are consistently switching between 4 work offsets and multiple heights and the control makes all that super easy. If you came up on Mach, you literally have no idea what you’re missing.
Side note, our first AV70s in its first month got a stuck drawbar. I didn’t feel comfortable prying on it to free it up…Avid, no questions asked, threw another spindle in the mail and it has ripped ever since. I will use these guys for anything and everything I can.
We also just received our atc peripherals and will hopefully get that deployed this weekend. Will report back
I’ve gone the route of the EX and the AV40s - and very much enjoy it. No experience with the 70 - so I can’t comment there. However, I will say - invest heavily in the ISO30 toolholders. Get one for every bit you have, plus some extras. Once you get your air compressor pressure dialed in at the spindle - even manually changing bits at the AV40s is just a wonderful experience. Having all of your bits in it’s own ISO30 makes this machine a WONDERFUL experience.
I think the ISO tool holders is one of the things I’m most excited about. I’m in the process of converting my metal mill to a similar style. It’s glorious not sawping collets.
We can do preps on 5 sides of door (multiple setups). And frames. Basically panics, butts, everything…don’t want an installer even drilling a single hole in the field.
The strategy here was to acclimate my guys with fusion and cnc in general. The 5 axis Onsrud will do all of this in 2 setups when it arrives.
A 3 axis machine like this and thus its required process can only keep u in second or third place.
We also have the “premier” rhino fab with tool changer and robot and I still built the avid machine if that tells you anything. It runs extrusions beautifully but can’t maintain the accuracy in re positioning that we require.
Regardless, for me this is kind of a last hoora for subtractive/the world of aluminum storefront and curtain wall. The (insert name of curtain wall/door supplier here) of the world are dying and can’t see it and at this point there kinda dead to me….Additive is the future and thus I’m refocusing there…..stay tuned…..awesome things are happening in the boring, discouraging, lazy world of glass and glazing.
